OKAY SO. In canon, Lucifer isn't really the Devil as we think about it. I essayed kind of a lot here about why Lucifer isn't actually evil, even if he is a hueg dick. The cracked out ending of his comic line is fairly ridiculous, but really drives home the point that Lucifer is a pawn in Yahweh's game, but the struggle to obtain free will was the right thing to do.
He doesn't remember any of that, but the free will thing is hardwired in. Lucifer does have morals, they just don't necessarily match up with everyone else's. They're 'god' morals, not mortal morals. His two biggest thoughts there are that people should be allowed to make their own choices, and that a higher moral authority is generally problematic, because once the concept of a moral high ground is established, people go nuts.
The thing that's got him pissed off about the Shield situation is that Shield decided that Mukuro was morally wrong, and that he needed to be punished until he was sorry. That drive for repentance instead of revenge is where he draws the line, and it's exacerbated by the fact that anyone who has a brain and has talked to Acedia for five minutes ought to be aware that feelings? Not really his thing. In the meantime, he's given everyone an example of repentance enforced by violence being totally acceptable, and woo, that could get inconvenient. If Shield had gone after Mukuro individually, that would have earned a shrug, but endorsing a team revenge looks like an official act instead of a personal vendetta--when a Sterling helps a team, it's supposed to be a transaction. He doesn't think the normals are naive in their thinking--that's why this is an issue. His justification for all of this is incredibly sketchy if pressed, because he doesn't have the memories that are object lessons for this stuff, but the knee-jerk reactions are all there.
Lucifer doesn't give a damn about what Mukuro did, or that Peridot got pissed and wanted some revenge. Neither of those things are 'bad' to him, and if just Peridot had broken three of Mukuro's fingers, he wouldn't have batted an eye. Ruby probably would've retaliated and it'd have escalated, but that isn't a problem in his eyes. They'd have maimed each other until someone realized what a piss-poor idea that was and it'd have blown over or Sterling stepped in to stop the whole deal. What's bad is that morality was introduced by an authority figure, which now gives people who find out about it a free pass to get up on a moral high ground and also indicates that Sterling will take sides. That in itself is a whole other problem, because you end up with chosen teams and a very divided Sterling. Yup, Lucifer takes things to biblical proportions XDb
It's amazing that Lloyd's thoughts on the situation and Satan's dovetail as much as they do and I enjoy that greatly.
Lloyd has a lot of respect for Lucifer, even though they haven't talked much! For one thing, he's Souya's boss, and Lloyd trusts Souya's judgment a lot. There is also a positive impression there because TALKS TO BEES?!
He figured out very quickly in their latest conversation that Lucifer didn't care about people on a personal level like he did, but his perspective on things still super helped Lloyd clarify his own feelings about it pretty quickly. Much more than talking to the other knights about it did! They come from different places on that one - Lloyd doesn't approve of setting Sterling up as a moral authority that'll take sides because he doesn't see Sterling as above the teams, and it sounds like for Lucifer it's the opposite - but it ends at a similar viewpoint!
He doesn't quite like him and he doesn't think their priorities are the same, but Lucifer is very high on his list of people to bounce complicated ideas off of now based on that one conversation, because the socratic method thing is the fastest way to get Lloyd to think about problems in a different light. He might not agree with the point being illuminated, but it's useful for him. This is enforced by the memory he just got back, in which (in the middle of a diplomatic conversation) a cool and authoritative older figure made a decisive statement, in light of which he was quickly able to reorganize his own more complicated feelings about it and agree. Though he doesn't remember it, his mentor figure (who eventually turned out to be... actually his dad) does the same socratic style of questioning to get him to reconsider things, and Kratos has the most impact on Lloyd's thinking of anyone in the cast, really. I'm rambling, but I guess I'm trying to get at Lloyd being strongly predisposed to find Lucifer really cool to talk to when he needs to work through something. Even if he doesn't agree that a finger isn't a big thing.
WOULD LUCIFER MIND HEROIC NAGGING WHEN LLOYD HAS OPINIONS HE WANTS TO SOUNDBOARD AT SOMEONE
YES COME TALK TO LUCIFER ALL THE TIME! Lloyd has become interesting to him because he actually thinks. Being agreed with isn't particularly important. Exercise your free will, Lloyd! Also their conversations have been super fun to play.
Yeah, Lucifer believes in the importance of the individual in a broad, philosophical sense, and definitely values life and living in the same way. Actual individuals, however, and individual lives, are not terribly significant to him. His kill count to the end of saving more lives is in the literal billions (and surprisingly effective).
It's consistently fascinating to me how he ends up on the same side as people who do care about those things for his own magical Luciferian reasons. For instance, it doesn't matter to him whether Sterling is or is not in actuality better than any regular team--they've been placed in a position of 'authority' and their team plain old works differently, which means they can't just do whatever they want. Whether that's 'good' or 'bad' is irrelevant. This keeps happening to him, and it makes me laugh. Satan the accidental do-gooder.
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Date: 2011-02-22 08:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-22 09:23 pm (UTC)He doesn't remember any of that, but the free will thing is hardwired in. Lucifer does have morals, they just don't necessarily match up with everyone else's. They're 'god' morals, not mortal morals. His two biggest thoughts there are that people should be allowed to make their own choices, and that a higher moral authority is generally problematic, because once the concept of a moral high ground is established, people go nuts.
The thing that's got him pissed off about the Shield situation is that Shield decided that Mukuro was morally wrong, and that he needed to be punished until he was sorry. That drive for repentance instead of revenge is where he draws the line, and it's exacerbated by the fact that anyone who has a brain and has talked to Acedia for five minutes ought to be aware that feelings? Not really his thing. In the meantime, he's given everyone an example of repentance enforced by violence being totally acceptable, and woo, that could get inconvenient. If Shield had gone after Mukuro individually, that would have earned a shrug, but endorsing a team revenge looks like an official act instead of a personal vendetta--when a Sterling helps a team, it's supposed to be a transaction. He doesn't think the normals are naive in their thinking--that's why this is an issue. His justification for all of this is incredibly sketchy if pressed, because he doesn't have the memories that are object lessons for this stuff, but the knee-jerk reactions are all there.
Lucifer doesn't give a damn about what Mukuro did, or that Peridot got pissed and wanted some revenge. Neither of those things are 'bad' to him, and if just Peridot had broken three of Mukuro's fingers, he wouldn't have batted an eye. Ruby probably would've retaliated and it'd have escalated, but that isn't a problem in his eyes. They'd have maimed each other until someone realized what a piss-poor idea that was and it'd have blown over or Sterling stepped in to stop the whole deal. What's bad is that morality was introduced by an authority figure, which now gives people who find out about it a free pass to get up on a moral high ground and also indicates that Sterling will take sides. That in itself is a whole other problem, because you end up with chosen teams and a very divided Sterling. Yup, Lucifer takes things to biblical proportions XDb
Lloyd's thoughts on Lucifer!
no subject
Date: 2011-02-22 09:46 pm (UTC)Lloyd has a lot of respect for Lucifer, even though they haven't talked much! For one thing, he's Souya's boss, and Lloyd trusts Souya's judgment a lot. There is also a positive impression there because TALKS TO BEES?!
He figured out very quickly in their latest conversation that Lucifer didn't care about people on a personal level like he did, but his perspective on things still super helped Lloyd clarify his own feelings about it pretty quickly. Much more than talking to the other knights about it did! They come from different places on that one - Lloyd doesn't approve of setting Sterling up as a moral authority that'll take sides because he doesn't see Sterling as above the teams, and it sounds like for Lucifer it's the opposite - but it ends at a similar viewpoint!
He doesn't quite like him and he doesn't think their priorities are the same, but Lucifer is very high on his list of people to bounce complicated ideas off of now based on that one conversation, because the socratic method thing is the fastest way to get Lloyd to think about problems in a different light. He might not agree with the point being illuminated, but it's useful for him. This is enforced by the memory he just got back, in which (in the middle of a diplomatic conversation) a cool and authoritative older figure made a decisive statement, in light of which he was quickly able to reorganize his own more complicated feelings about it and agree. Though he doesn't remember it, his mentor figure (who eventually turned out to be... actually his dad) does the same socratic style of questioning to get him to reconsider things, and Kratos has the most impact on Lloyd's thinking of anyone in the cast, really. I'm rambling, but I guess I'm trying to get at Lloyd being strongly predisposed to find Lucifer really cool to talk to when he needs to work through something. Even if he doesn't agree that a finger isn't a big thing.
WOULD LUCIFER MIND HEROIC NAGGING WHEN LLOYD HAS OPINIONS HE WANTS TO SOUNDBOARD AT SOMEONE
no subject
Date: 2011-02-22 10:41 pm (UTC)Yeah, Lucifer believes in the importance of the individual in a broad, philosophical sense, and definitely values life and living in the same way. Actual individuals, however, and individual lives, are not terribly significant to him. His kill count to the end of saving more lives is in the literal billions (and surprisingly effective).
It's consistently fascinating to me how he ends up on the same side as people who do care about those things for his own magical Luciferian reasons. For instance, it doesn't matter to him whether Sterling is or is not in actuality better than any regular team--they've been placed in a position of 'authority' and their team plain old works differently, which means they can't just do whatever they want. Whether that's 'good' or 'bad' is irrelevant. This keeps happening to him, and it makes me laugh. Satan the accidental do-gooder.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-22 11:37 pm (UTC)That's pretty much magical, yeah. SOMEDAY I WILL READ YOUR CANON, LUCIFER.